In regards to cloaking, it would be best for the system (Sov Mechanics) to have a scanning mechanism specifically for cloaking ships. It would find a signature in system and would be able to put you on the same grid as the cloaked individual, within 20-50kms. The range could be random. This way, the cloaking individual can't afk. He needs to pay constant attention to his screen. Due to the speed penalty, covert ops cloak is a MUST. If he afk's with a t1, he will easily be found if the defense team wants to find him & has the need. How this will work with renters I'm not really sure yet.

A Let's see, the PvE player docks up, and to outside awareness becomes inactive for all intents and purposes.
It is suspected the PvE player watches local, to see if the hostile name goes away.

B The cloaked player, engages that cloak, and is suspected of maintaining a non-stop vigil, as well as maintaining a significant group of allies on stand-by to hot drop with.

So, to an objective third party, who is actually more active?

Whats So Wrong with a Cloaked pilot Having to be just as proactive as the PvE? In another post i said your like the pot calling the kettle black because you say the Carebears are crying they wanna feel safe waa waaa but then your the one saying no no don't take my trolling tool away don't make me have to have any skill i wanna sit around not paying attention to anything because i got my cloak on.

There should be some skill to the cloaked pilot.

I quoted Terms from Star Trek showing that the idea that a cloaked ship is absolutely not able to be semi detected in some way is absurd.

Allowing Sov Owners to put up like " quantum beacons " that you could perform " metaphysic sweep's" to determine a general location of 20-50KM from a cloaked ship. Only able to be re-used after like a 30 Min cool down Allowing said alliance to warp and perform a physical search op?

Would make it still able to gather Intel and be undetected as to exactly where it's at it would just be a round-about location and would set the regular cloak apart of the covert-ops even more

With the game mechanics the way it is in you would be moving at a much faster travel speed with covert-ops so you should have a very good chance of not being found. You would see everyone else around you and be moving away. Also Black-op BS's would be super effective with the speed boosts.

I don't see any Dev guiding the discussion which would be a huge help to this issue. Helping advance the ideas rather than a lot of them buried under many pages of posts....

Please, point me to the in-game effect caused by AFK cloaking that requires a counter.

The only effect AFK cloaking has is on the perception of safety due to a friendly local list. How exactly do you counter human psychology?

Whats So Wrong with a Cloaked pilot Having to be just as proactive as the PvE? In another post i said your like the pot calling the kettle black because you say the Carebears are crying they wanna feel safe waa waaa but then your the one saying no no don't take my trolling tool away don't make me have to have any skill i wanna sit around not paying attention to anything because i got my cloak on.

There should be some skill to the cloaked pilot.

I quoted Terms from Star Trek showing that the idea that a cloaked ship is absolutely not able to be semi detected in some way is absurd.

Allowing Sov Owners to put up like " quantum beacons " that you could perform " metaphysic sweep's" to determine a general location of 20-50KM from a cloaked ship. Only able to be re-used after like a 30 Min cool down Allowing said alliance to warp and perform a physical search op?

Would make it still able to gather Intel and be undetected as to exactly where it's at it would just be a round-about location and would set the regular cloak apart of the covert-ops even more

With the game mechanics the way it is in you would be moving at a much faster travel speed with covert-ops so you should have a very good chance of not being found. You would see everyone else around you and be moving away. Also Black-op BS's would be super effective with the speed boosts.

I don't see any Dev guiding the discussion which would be a huge help to this issue. Helping advance the ideas rather than a lot of them buried under many pages of posts....

Then why not talk about that instead of people's reactions to it?

Also of note, it's been a game mechanic since cloaking devices were introduced, and the only place it seems to be an issue is in rented nullsec space. Not in hisec, not in losec, and certainly not in wormholes. Why do you think that is?

I'll tell you why: in all the other regions, there is no reasonable expectation of all-friendly local. Remove that expectation, and the supposed issue of AFK cloaking vanishes in a puff of logic.

Just thought I'd point out that scan probes are 100% detectable on D-scan. If a cloaked ship has probes out, you know that they were at keyboard within the lifetime of the probes. If the probes are moving, you know that they are at keyboard right now.

I've made several. Choosing to ignore them doesn't negate them.

The whole "100% unable to activate modules or actively interact with the environment" thing is kind of a big deal. 100% safety in exchange for that seems pretty balanced.

So, when PvP is an expectation, AFK cloaking is alright? Isn't EvE a PvP game? Isn't PvP an expectation...everywhere? Seriously, you are making the case against nerfing AFK cloaking better than I am. Thanks.

Roxanne Quall you're asking for a change and you need to show why it is needed. It's not the AFK part people like yourself complain of. It's the uncertainty and active part.
I see you keep posting the same line, but I have yet to see you justify the need for this change.

So here are some questions.

• 1. Whilst they are AFK and cloaked, what mechanic do they use to interact with you?
• 2. Why do you not mention or suggest, any changes to all the mechanics involved in this?
• 3. Why should you gain yet more intel, on top of an already powerful, 100% risk free, instant, unbiased intel system?

And we have another honest post in this thread. I put emphasis on the to-be-expected part.
You are a bit late to the party Roxanne, so in case you missed some other honest posts, I have them quoted here.

Posts like the one above make this thread worthwhile. Yes Roxanne, as Bronson Hughes noted, you involuntary make a solid pro-afk-cloak / anti-local case.

Let me point out one more aspect of this debate.

Ganks like this are persistent danger in wormholes and they happen regularly. It is true that w-space doesn't have cyno, but nevertheless you will encounter roaming t3's and must be prepared to face them. There are also other aspects of wh living which increase potential losses. For example, if you intend to stay in whs the clone mechanics don't give you an option to switch implants on regular basis. Not to mention a trip back from k-space when podded.
But there is another impornant aspect that make wh residents so quiet in this thread: team work, or at least alts, is inherent part of the environment. It is simply expected to have scouts when ratting. Scanning is bread and butter of everyday operations. Risk is prevalent. No one expects to have thinks easy. And that's the difference with certain null residents.

Roxanne the broken game dynamic is having no way of creeping up on opponents undetected. Thats why you all run away, because you know cloaked ships are present when you shouldnt thanks to local. Perfect, flawless, Local.

You want to change cloaks? change local with it.

My statement says no such thing. in fact, it does the opposite. 'Change cloaks with local'.

didnt you realise the reason afk cloaking happens is to get around local? havent you been reading?

Bolded the only important thing this post has said all thread. Like we've said, it isn't the game mechanics involved, it's the uncertainty. Uncertainty throws people off balance and too many people can't handle it, so they run to the nearest forum and demand that something be done.

Which is why they whole idea always gets such staunch opposition, 99 times out of 100 the people doing the complaining/crying didn't lift a single finger in their own defense, didn't spend a single second thinking "How can I solve this 'problem' myself". I can't speak for everyone but I know that I personally despise such thinking, I think it's weak


Because we understand what the real issue is (uncertainty), me and folks like me learned to attack the real problem. You do that by putting yourself in a position where it does not matter one bit what the 'afk cloaker' chooses to do.

If he decloaks and tries to point my "screw you" fit battleship he gets to watch me warp or MJD away unless he decided to risk a Recon with faction scrams in which case I devote my ships dying breaths to killing his more expensive ship before his friends get me. isk War Won.

If he decides to decloak and attack my Industrial with fighters assigned and he killed me, big whoop he killed a 12 million isk ship that makes 15 mil per 20 minute tick lol. If he hot drops me he just probably spent more in fuel than the cost of my ship

If he decides to decloak and hot drop my triple remote repping Domi multibox fleet he better bring one hell of a gang to kill it, or I will kill them

So forth and so on. Problem solved, mr. cloaker can freaking LIVE in my ratting system and his existence doesn't matter a bit. All without CCP having to chance a single line of Code. This is what EVE is, a game where you figure things out. Well, at least it's that for some of us....

Threre is nothing you can do thats the point but sit and wait tell he decids to show himself. why does he get that right of 1st attack? both partys should be able to attack

You don't have any faith in your stance, that's fine.

The funny thing is, I don't avoid what's available. I use the tools CCP provide and play the game. I love the current system and see it as balanced. You on the other hand, want yet more intel and a safer sov null. But have failed to address why you should get it.

You will of course keep up with the nonsense about killboards and WH space and avoid all the discussion in regards to the mechanics involved, except the cloak.
You have no intention of a balanced approach, that is quite obvious.

The 'immunity' argument was debunked long ago. It has already been addressed. It's a two way street, therefore a none argument.

Cloaks already have counters, just not the one you want. If you want to change that, then ALL the mechanics involved need to change.

I have to "hot drop" myself into this discussion....


There are a lot of people indignant about a lot of issues here, and there are people pointlessly pounding their heads against the spaceport wall. The issue here is people inserting opinions into facts, and emotions ruling over reason... and this is true for BOTH sides of this argument.

The purpose of this discussion is, in fact, AFK cloaking. Not JUST afk cloaking in terms of sov space, but having a character, in space, invisible, with no means to track them down regardless of where or what systems you have at your disposal. Lets take this from the "bigger picture".

CCP, as a company designing games, has ALWAYS allowed for counters to any form of gameplay. The counter might just be common sense thinking or strategic planning... but it exists. Right now, as it stands, there is NOTHING to keep a player from AFK'ing in space in a cloaky ship. Any other ship, in any other space, under any other conditions is vulnerable. The question comes down to simply, is this a part of core game design that should stay that way or not? This argument is NOT about cloaky camping (the most common form of AFK cloaking)... but about actual game concepts and mechanics.

Active cloakers have many things to worry about... from warping in too close to objects and de-cloaking themselves to how vulnerable they are jumping gates.... but if you sit in one spot, there is a 0.00000000000000%chance something will happen, or that you can be tracked down.

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Personal opinion time!

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I love covert operations. I use cloakys all the time, and I have been guilty of afk cloaky camping in hostile territory. I would also support a move by CCP to make cloaky ships vulnerable to detection as WELL as a system to prevent AFK ship flying (Don't really CARE if we talk cloaky here or not)

Concepts ranging from one cloaky being able to detect another from within a 20km radius, with probes that can get you sorta close to that range... almost like fumbling blindly looking for your target.... to the destroyer concept, to just about anything you can imagine, as long as an active pilot has a chance to counter the counter to their cloaking with smart play. There needs to be a "counter" to a cloak no different than there is any other system in the game. Not because cloaking is OP, or other lame arguments, but because in this game nothing is free. No one is safe.... except for an afk pilot with a cloak, and pilots that are docked...

It really doesn't matter if you are talking about Sov Space, High Sec, Faction warfare.... someone in space should be vulnerable to something AT ALL TIMES. Even ships inside of POS's can get bombed.

Local intel is free, omnipotent, perfect, flawless, instant, colour coordinated and provides total safety. And correct a counter does exists, afk cloaking.

glad you think something should be done about both rather than just one or that both should have their counters remain intact.

While he is 10000% safe, so are you from him. (Making that figure higher, doesn't make your argument any stronger or more relevant. Just a heads up.)

Which leads back the the first question.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, which mechanic do they use to interact with you?

I asked which mechanic he uses whilst AFK. Most of those you mention, require active play. One does not and it is a major part of your problem. Local.

But for some strange reason, you do not want to include it in your ideas for change.

After a pilot has been cloaked and has not warped for 5 minutes, the following happens:
A) They disappear from local
B) They lose access to local intel (if people talk in local they can see it, but they don't have a list of pilots that are in local)

If the cloaked player drops cloak or initiates warp, they become visible in local again and their own local is restored. Moving around on grid does not affect their local status in any way, only warping.


+ Doesn't affect wormholes.
+ May give a small amount of warning to locals when a pilot stops being AFK, depending on where the cloaker decides to lie in wait.
+ Alternatively if a cloaker picks a good spot then they could surprise unsuspecting players who feel safe and aren't paying attention to/don't have access to earlier intel.


I have no clue whatsoever if this is possible from a programming standpoint.

why would the above be necessary?
1.) to make it like the WH space you would need to concentrate your group into a tight space, that way they can defend one another while this would work with mining seeing as increasing the number doesnt affect the profit per time base it hurts it very quickly and significantly with ratting activities. forcing those ratters to disperse and be vulnerable and practically solo.

2.) HOT DROP, not a problem for WH sure you might still have a group come though the WH and uncloak next to you but that takes a bit of work, getting up against a player and lighting the i win button cyno takes however significantly less and instantly brings overwhelming force. if it were to happen in WH space you might still have some hope of survival seeing as all the ratters are right there they may still come to your aid and maybe save your ass, but in null those same ratters would be dispersed over a constellation at least but probably over a region, there is no way they can ever make it to you to save you.

3.) you are also looking at populations hunting you, in NULL there is constantly someone out there looking for targets alot of those people dont bother going into WH specifically because the HOTDROP doesn't work there but all the pilots looking for a kill do look for it in null while only a small portion venture in WH. if you made cloaks remove you from local or remove local entirely you are looking at a rise in loses that might be even higher than an order or magnitude, you will drive ratting out of null as profits will plummet and it wont be worth it, especially with the security and profits afforded to high sec with incursions.

4.) if you remove local you will have to scale rewards for null way up that way those same people will still be able to make a profit while constantly loosing their 500mil + ratting ships.

5.) or just all start ratting in carriers within jump range of one another all fitted with a cyno that might work instead too.

Exactly this. If you don't know the hot dropper is there (no local), the hot dropper doesn't know how many are there either without active scouting.

Actually it does...or if I do do it, it will mean nothing. I'm AFK and cloaked you can't see me and you go about your business in null as if I was not there.

It is precisely because of how local works now that AFK cloaking is a thing.

An AFK cloaker has never ever killed anything in any system at any time in this game. Never, ever. And the reason is obvious...trivial even. You can't do anything to kill another ship or player if you are AFK.

Or to put it differently if you died to a cloaking ship, that player was absolutely 100% not AFK when you died. This is a complete and total fact. It is indisputable...well assuming you are not as dumb as a stump.

Delayed local is the best solution. Having to work for Intel, and maintain gate control is where nullsec should go. Any well defended stronghold has guards at the gates. If you leave them open, its your fault when you get attacked. We maintain scouts on our wormholes. When there's a threat, we fight for hole control. Failing to control that avenue is why we use scouts. We dont have the crutches of Local to lean on. Nullsec should not be such an easy place to lIve. Easy breeds lazy which results in greedy, fat nullbears.